In a world built on efficiency, maintaining a routine is often our default strategy for growth. In the final episode of this series, we hear a retrospective from Chris Do on his decision to accept the risks of entrepreneurship and the value of discerning the real needs of others. We'll hear from Global Marketing Leader @ Google, Désirée Daniels about the need to challenge industry norms to provide the best experience to customers.
[00:00:00] Jaycen: In a world built on efficiency, maintaining a routine is often our default strategy for growth. That's a wise man once said, "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten." In the final episode of this series, we hear a retrospective from Chris Do on his decision to accept the risks of entrepreneurship and the value of discerning the real needs of others. We'll hear from a global marketing leader at Google about the need to challenge industry norms to provide the best experience to customers. This is a podcast about communication, marketing and the account-based mindset. This is Reach. Well, thanks so much for joining us for the final installment in our series on value and involvement. My name is Jason, I'm joined today by chief creative officer, Garrett Krinsky ...
[00:00:52] Garret: I'm excited about today.
[00:00:53] Jaycen: ... and Hiromi Matsumoto.
[00:00:54] Hiromi: Hey, there.
[00:00:56] Jaycen: I thought was interesting in the last episode, Emily talking about the experience of Kevin Carroll and the role that play plays in getting their team involved. And I was thinking in terms of like involving others is it just getting people to kind of let their hair down, so to speak. How often are we creating opportunities for that to happen?
[00:01:21] Garret: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:22] Jaycen: And especially in the work environment that we're in, right? Like many are hybrid, many are remote. Is that what we're lacking in order to really truly involve others, is surfacing opportunities to play together to create these outside experiences that help involve others and really get to know others? So fundamentally, it's like you kind of have to get together, you got to get off the screen and perhaps that helps us connect on a deeper level, that helps us get to know the joys and the passions that we individually share and form greater connections amongst our team.
[00:01:54] Hiromi: Is this your way of getting us to join your pickleball league?
[00:01:59] Jaycen: [laughs] playing lawn tennis and it's easier.
[00:02:02] Garret: [laughs].
[00:02:02] Jaycen: Yeah.
[00:02:02] Hiromi: Sounds good.
[00:02:03] Jaycen: Check mark. I talked to-
[00:02:05] Garret: Like Emily brought up a good point about why is there a disagreement on a project level and, you know, maybe they didn't sleep, maybe that person's sick. And it's like involving people to the point where you feel comfortable going there, where you can say, "There's a disconnect. Can I switch over now into this personal mode? Can I get to know them on a deeper level." And when I think about Chris as a teacher, in many of his YouTubes, he gets to this point where he's getting to personal motivation and personal kind of stuff, but those things affect what we do in a business realm as well, involving people beyond corporate acronym speaks, "What is this meeting agenda about taking some time to understand what's really going on in their life?" I thought was really key.
[00:02:54] Hiromi: Yeah, I imagine a lot of that is connected to what motivates us. In past episodes, Chris talked a lot about his inspiration to become a teacher, but that was a risky move. He had a profitable design and production studio. To transition from that to making free content on YouTube, not everyone would take that leap. But we asked Chris how he feels about the move to online education.
[00:03:16] Chris Do: I try to live with a mindset of gratitude, so I like to take notice of all the little things that happened, those kind of pinch me moments. Just earlier, I was chatting with my wife and one of her tenants is wanting to talk to her and it's never good when your tenants want to talk to you because it means there's a problem. They're in the industry that we used to be in, in commercial production and music videos. I remember the pain that we had around these huge swings between the feast and famine cycles, where we would be super busy. Like we cannot find enough people to do the work and I'm working nonstop, 60-70 hours a week to these lulls that might happen for weeks at a time. We're not sure of our financial future.
[00:04:02] And I turned to my wife and I had said to her, "Aren't you so glad that eight years ago we pivoted away from service basic business to creating content and educating people?" And she's like, "Yes, because we're not stuck in those feast or famine cycles. We have a very predictable revenue stream. And despite whether or not we're heading into recession or the world is falling apart, our business keeps humming along. It's not a rocket ship. It's not a race car, but it just keeps moving forward." And so I sit on top of that thinking, "How do we get here?" Because if you asked me in 2013, prior to embarking on this adventure, could you foresee yourself living anywhere in the world, not being tied down to the office space, having zero clients, working mostly with just creative people, making money while you sleep? Like that's a nice dream, but it's just that, it's just going to be a dream, that's not going to be possible.
[00:05:08] We set out to do something that was really near and dear to my heart which is to educate and teach people. And the accidental unintended benefits of this is I've become a thought leader or an influencer.
[00:05:20] That's hard for you to see [inaudible 00:05:22]. If you're interested in what it is we do, we follow you. If you're on Instagram, I'll be on Instagram. If you're in LinkedIn, I'll be there too. I want to be where you want to be. I'll meet you at the place of your convenience.
[00:05:31] And now companies give me a lot of money to use their products and services and to talk about my experiences.
[00:05:38] I like Adobe sneaks for their preview, totally raw, unstructured software.
[00:05:44] I'm 50 years old and I'm still as motivated as energized today, even more so than I was when I was 22 years old.
[00:05:52] Thank you very much. [inaudible 00:05:55].
[00:05:54] I get to touch the lives of people that I've most likely will never meet in real life before my time is up here on Earth. And I think there's something wonderful and beautiful about that.
[00:06:08] I get to live my purpose every single day.
[00:06:10] Okay, some of you guys-
[00:06:15] Garret: I feel like Chris' pivot from service to education was going further into service, which I find is quite an interesting pivot because it's, as we were talking about, "Oh, put the customer first, guardian of the customer," we always talk about this as like best practice buzzword and marketing [laughs], but he leapfrogged from creating projects that communicate with a person to now, "I'm just gonna go help that person directly."
[00:06:40] Jaycen: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:40] Garret: Many of us maybe can't even do that because [laughs] the financial whatever, but it was like he just went for it straight into that.
[00:06:47] Jaycen: I was thinking like through the first three discussions, this idea of putting purpose ahead of profits or being generous and being giving versus taking is kind of what's been surfaced throughout, understanding what kind of behaviors really affect the best long-term outcomes rather than focusing on short-sighted things. And it seems like Chris has recognized that through education and teaching and seeing that that really benefited him. And so he wanted to do more of it. And I think talking to Emily, she's seen that be a big part of her path. And even with our next guest, she's getting to that place. She's been the recipient of it, but now is in a position to also give
[00:07:32] So by way of introduction, Desiree Daniels is an award-winning senior marketing professional with experience developing and driving account-based marketing, regional industry-relevant marketing strategies on a global scale for Google. So welcome.
[00:07:50] Desiree Daniels: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to kick off our conversation today.
[00:07:56] Jaycen: Well, I'm excited as well. First up, just tell me and our listeners a little bit more about your roles. What do you currently do at Google?
[00:08:04] Desiree Daniels: Sure, so I had the ABM strategy and execution for our retail industry within Google Cloud. So that covers retail, anything from fashion big box to consumer, so really fun industry.
[00:08:19] Jaycen: H- how does that work? Give us a little more context. Like in one of our first discussions, you were just coming back, I believe, from Fashion Week. Why is Google there?
[00:08:29] Desiree Daniels: Yeah, like any ABM program, we do look at subindustry segments. I have peers that focus on healthcare, life sciences, media and entertainment. And I happen to cover retail. And when we look at retail, it's a very large industry that can be further segmented into industry niches. So fashion is one of them, CPG. And when we look at our plan within these niche industries, we think about where can we have the most impact and drive the most in terms of our relationships, our reputation and our revenue within those industries. And when you look at fashion, New York Fashion Week is absolutely one of those major milestones, where a lot of conversation around the future of that subindustry take place. So it's, uh, an important part of our calendar to make sure that we are meeting accounts where they are.
[00:09:25] Jaycen: That's awesome. What do you observe just personally that was appealing when you were there?
[00:09:30] Desiree Daniels: Well, one of the things outside of my immediate role that I'm super passionate about is diversity and inclusion and allyship.
[00:09:38] Jaycen: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:39] Desiree Daniels: And I was really impressed to see the diversity of the designers and the shows that took place at Fashion Week. I think they hit record numbers in terms of supporting new designers, up-and-coming designers, and then of course, diverse from different demographics and backgrounds designers and they even had the Black designers showroom which is incredible and the pieces are amazing. And that's something that I find so important in every industry, is how are we creating allyship and community. So that's just something that I took away from Fashion Week specifically.
[00:10:16] Jaycen: Awesome. So in this season, we're talking to Chris Do and Chris Do led a successful agency and now is pursuing a path of being an educator. He's on a path to educate a billion people to do the thing they love. So really, he's about education around value creation like especially in the design community and creators and things like that, how that they can make a living doing this. And it's interesting, as we're talking to Chris, he speaks about individuals that had an impact on him, educators such as his father and specific teachers that really impacted his line of reasoning and thinking and now he's tapping into that. So I'm curious, like when you look back, is there anyone that had a major impact on you, maybe personally or professionally?
[00:11:10] Desiree Daniels: Absolutely. I grew up in Southern California in an area that, unfortunately in 2008, had a 78% foreclosure rate.
[00:11:20] Jaycen: Wow.
[00:11:20] Desiree Daniels: So everyone that I went to high school with [laughs], we were all rising seniors, getting ready to look at essentially college and what was next for us. And all of us were faced with deep economic uncertainty. And when I look at where we are right now and we're in a, probably a recession or coming close to it, my perspective on recession now versus then is wildly different. And it's because people along the way in my journey, having really started with not a lot of advantages [laughs] ...
[00:11:59] Jaycen: Right.
[00:11:59] Desiree Daniels: ... to, you know, making it in tech and finding work in college and everything, along the way, there were a lot of people that saw an opportunity to help someone else and have always said, "Pay it forward." So getting a scholarship when 2008 there was no way I was going to college without a scholarship, going, getting an internship at various tech companies with no tech background. I was not an engineer. I was studying pre-law at the time and eventually switched to business. But people saw an opportunity and wanted to pay it forward. And that's something that I live by. And when I look at the economy now, I look at it as an opportunity. And sure, my situation has changed greatly from college kid [laughs] ...
[00:12:48] Jaycen: Right.
[00:12:48] Desiree Daniels: ... uh, who didn't have a lot of resources, but now I've been working and have an opportunity to pay it forward. That means investing, paying it forward by microlending to people who want someone to see an opportunity in them like they did in me. So really, I guess the lesson is paying it forward and then what seems like a scary thing sometimes like a recession can actually be an opportunity. And there's always opportunities for us to uplift one another and see potential in something that seems like a scary time.
[00:13:20] Jaycen: That's great. That's a great story. And it actually reminds me of a previous guests that we had on Bobby Herrera. He has a book The Gift of Struggle and he talks about being the beneficiary of an act of kindness and really how that kind of propelled him. So it, it sounds very similar like having perspective and then now you're in a position to, to pass that on to others which is fantastic. We're exploring this idea again of involvement. I'm curious, what does that mean to you? What does the idea of involvement mean?
[00:13:53] Desiree Daniels: So I thought about this in a couple of different ways and I was like ...
[00:13:56] Jaycen: [laughs].
[00:13:56] Desiree Daniels: ... "Hmm, there's a lot to unpack there."
[00:13:58] Jaycen: It could go anyway. Go for it.
[00:14:00] Desiree Daniels: It could go either way, but it's weird. The first thing that came to my head was this concept of attendance. And, you know, everyone can sign up for different things, agree to participate, want to be involved in a project, a club, an initiatives. And that's all great, but really what comes into effect is your attendance. So how involved are you? It's really just a series of small actions that accumulate into an output. And if you take a big task, it can be overwhelming, but if you break it into tiny, tiny chunks and you're consistent and you're communicative and you're putting in that attendance, you do most of the time reach that initiative, that goal. So when I think of involvement, it really is that. It's taking a big lofty goal and breaking it into smaller bits, and showing up every day, every week, whatever the cadence needs to be to accomplish it.
[00:14:59] Jaycen: Nice and like specifically, like getting others involved in a process, I love that about attendance, like being present, showing up, doing something, right? As part of the process. Have you ever encountered challenges when you need to get others involved, maybe specifically in communication and how to overcome that to get others to be participatory or attenders with you? Can you think of any examples there?
[00:15:27] Desiree Daniels: Yeah, I mean I don't want to revert back to ABM because we just had a whole conversation about how ABM isn't why it existed. [laughs].
[00:15:34] Jaycen: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:36] Desiree Daniels: With ABM, there's a lot of goals within companies to start an ABM motion.
[00:15:42] Jaycen: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:43] Desiree Daniels: And there's a lot of buzzwordiness, sexy terminology. And when you think about it, the steps to get there are actually broken into many, many different parts across many parts of the business and stakeholders. And you really have to start small and strategic in order to get a snowball effect of buy-in. And maybe it's starting with some quick wins, building relationships with a customer or a seller and gain that momentum and having it serve as a catalyst for others to not necessarily think about ABM specifically. But I tried to put it in the lens of, "How can we create an account-based organization? How do we look at a customer-first motion?"
[00:16:27] And yes, marketing is one of the tools in that toolkit, but really there's so many other parties that have nothing to do with marketing that need to be involved to achieve that sustainably. It's humbling when you're like, "This is a big initiative and I really need to start small and efficiently to get any traction on this in the short term and sustain it in the long term.
[00:16:48] Jaycen: Right. Yeah, no, that's a good point. I think many struggle with that, specifically in this discipline. And again, with Chris specifically, it's interesting like the line of questioning he found as a youth from his father, it kind of helped him get to a conclusion. And so we're exploring a little bit of this idea too of, how do questions help gain the participation or the attendance, as you said, of others? What have you found, like in terms of getting others involved to help better understand others, maybe they have a reluctance to do something and so kind of surfacing that insight? Are there any things like that that have stood out in your work or in life?
[00:17:31] Desiree Daniels: Yeah, I mean I think it sounds cliche, but, you know, walking a mile in someone's shoes, I think so much of whether it's ABM or life, you have to ask the other person, what's in it for them. Any interaction with a human is, honestly, a tip of the iceberg interaction because you've got so many things beneath the surface of that person, that affect their behavior, their outlook on life, their perspective. And sure, we can know everything about someone. I'm not a psychologist ...
[00:18:05] Jaycen: Right.
[00:18:05] Desiree Daniels: ... but it's important when you're trying to get buy in to understand the driving factors of people and what are the, some of the motivating factors, and ultimately, what's in it for them. It isn't purely what's in it for them. I find that it's often a mediation. There's things between two parties that are shared and then there's going to be times when they're not. There are different motivating factors that don't always align, but mediation is ultimately something that every person goes through there, every interaction in the day. Everything is a boundary. It's decisions, conversations, interactions. You're mediating 100 times today [laughs].
[00:18:43] Jaycen: I love that. I'm thinking about mediation of like my kids and trying to get them to do so [inaudible 00:27:23] [laughs].
[00:18:49] Desiree Daniels: Yeah-
[00:18:50] Jaycen: We're just talking the other day with my cohost and that's kind of where he went too. He's like, "I'm learning like [laughs] how to use this and basically a better line of reasoning and how to get them to want to participate, right? When they don't want to clean the room," for example. How do we help individuals to embrace it and want to do something versus just having to do something?
[00:19:13] Desiree Daniels: Yeah, and I think we probably don't admit to this, but we have to mediate with ourselves all day.
[00:19:19] Jaycen: Yeah, right.
[00:19:20] Desiree Daniels: You've got a lot of choices, a lot of options. And sure if there's people like [laughs] Zuckerberg, who wear the same thing every day to mitigate some of those choices, but at the end of the day, every part of your existence, you are mediating with yourself and with others. And mediating maybe sounds too much like a lawyer, but there might be a better word for it, but you're kind of in your mind choosing options, choosing your own adventure and that is ultimately what life is. And when I think about mediating with myself, I think a lot about BJ Fogg, who is an expert in habits and behavioral design and having to teach at Stanford. And he basically says, "There are these tiny habits and you need to really make them small and simple for them to stay."
[00:20:08] And I kind of use that approach when making decision. Like you're going to start small. And even though like you may say, "Oh, well, that's gonna take forever," [laughs], when you get good at starting small, you can become better and faster at making decisions, not only with yourself but with other people. And I do find that when you're presenting options to people, making it simple, making it small and saying, "We don't have to boil the ocean today, but let's just decide on this first step," a lot easier to get people to say, "Oh, I can go a step. I don't know if I can go a mile with you, but I can definitely go a step."
[00:20:43] Jaycen: Right.
[00:20:43] Desiree Daniels: So that helps.
[00:20:45] Jaycen: Yeah, I love that breaking it up in little bits, little chunks. So much more manageable than the, [laughs] the big things that, that we're faced with, like you said, just individually, so that's a great learning. How about becoming, as we do receive input from others, and maybe again, uh, this could be professionally or maybe even in life, often we may hear what someone says, "There could be a disconnect. Are we really truly listening to what someone says?" Like what do you think we can do to become a better listener?
[00:21:18] Desiree Daniels: Well, I'll be 100% vulnerable and say that we're sending something that I'm always trying to get better at coz I think all of us have been in meetings or interactions where you're getting your point across and somebody's already thinking about what they're going to say and they're not listening to what you're saying. And I'm sure we often in that position on the other end of the spectrum ...
[00:21:40] Jaycen: Guilty [laughs].
[00:21:41] Desiree Daniels: ... we're probably, uh, [laughs] we're probably not listening.
[00:21:45] Jaycen: Yeah.
[00:21:45] Desiree Daniels: And I think this can translate to a lot of places in life, whether you're an ABM practitioner and your whole role is listening to the customer and prove and show that you're meeting them where they are. If you're a manager, so much of being a good manager is listening and giving those who aren't the loudest in the room an opportunity, making sure that everyone is actively listening and there's not just a few people that have all of the answers. And then there's people in your life, you may have come in with a preconceived notion of like, "Oh, my husband's gonna say this," or, "My child is always going to divert to that," and people surprise you, so listen. Listen, more than you come in and speak with a preconceived notion. Don't make assumption.
[00:22:31] Jaycen: Yeah, I think we're all with you with that [laughs], Desiree, especially even like just interviews, like things like this. It's like you're trying to think ahead, but at the same time, what I find is I try to be as present as possible because there's something there that you're exploring that you maybe haven't given real thought to or maybe it leads to something else, right? That's the best of communication, right? It's kind of like a two-way exchange, being respectful of the other person. I think what you said too not prejudging, just like give them a voice and listen, really hear people out.
[00:23:05] Desiree Daniels: one of the really humbling parts of the job is I love marketing, I love coming up with cool fun ways to engage with a target audience, just really distilling it down. But when I go to a sales person, then I say, "Well, tell me about your account," it's always really interesting to see that they come from a selling background, a different approach. They have amazing ideas, marketing all the time, which I'm so grateful that I have fellows have really cool ideas, but there's always going to be a difference in how they approach the same question. And typically what I'll do is I will print out a worksheet that just ask questions. They're pretty simple. Some of them are kind of vague.
[00:23:51] Jaycen: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:51] Desiree Daniels: But I like to see how they go and sell this out on their own time. Some of the sellers are more in depth than other. Some have more time to answer than others, but they all kind of take an interpretation of those questions differently and it gives me a pretty unique insight into an account or a group of accounts. Same goes if you're like a sales engineer or a customer success manager, like all the different roles and seats at a table that are also guardians of the customer. Some of them have quotas [laughs] so-
[00:24:22] Jaycen: Right [laughs].
[00:24:23] Desiree Daniels: But it's interesting to see how when we go off into our own brainstorming session, then we come back, how people interpret what is really just a simple worksheet to get people to think about it and give me some context on how, from my perspective, as a marketer, I can take what I know and apply it to an ABM program.
[00:24:42] Jaycen: Yeah, no, that's great. I think having different perspectives is a diamond, right? It has so many facets to it and that's what really makes it what it is. And so by gaining all these perspectives, maybe we have a better view, the challenge that we're trying to solve for or the reasons why someone's trying to solve for X or why they said this.
[00:25:04] Desiree Daniels: It also helps to knowing that big huge companies that we are trying to break ground in and build relationships. They're also multifaceted and have a lot of people with different ideas of what is the best-case resolve for these high-level imperatives. Everyone has different approaches to solving a problem and we have one approach towards an account that's multifaceted, that's putting a lot of eggs in one basket.
[00:25:32] Jaycen: Totally, we are a complicated species [laughs].
[00:25:36] Desiree Daniels: Yeah [laughs].
[00:25:39] Jaycen: That's for sure.
[00:25:40] Desiree Daniels: Totally [laughs].
[00:25:43] Jaycen: [laughs] now, another way we were chatting about this idea of involvement is really by getting people involved. And one of the ways to do that is through experiences. Getting people involved in a process can really make something meaningful to them. And in effect, they're engaging in other aspects of their brain and everything that, that helps them to remember it longer and actually take a lesson and maybe apply that in different ways. Is there a singular experience in your life that stands out? And it can you describe its impact and how it's helped you personally or professionally?
[00:26:19] Desiree Daniels: Well, I know that I'm probably oversimplifying this, but there's a lot of things that my current mentors, people that have had more experience in life than I and people will always tell you, "Oh, yeah, when you're my age or when you go through this, you'll know." And you're kind of like it's a construct until it happens to you. And sure, shared experiences definitely unite people and I think that people have different experiences with things like jobs and maybe kids and marriage and all the major life milestones, but I think what's interesting and I may be going too esoteric on this ...
[00:27:01] Jaycen: [laughs] that's right.
[00:27:01] Desiree Daniels: ... but the thought of shared human experience, it looks different for everyone, but everyone can identify with happiness, sadness, joy, unless you are sociopaths and you don't feel any emotion.
[00:27:17] Jaycen: [laughs].
[00:27:17] Desiree Daniels: All of us can understand what it feels like to be extremely happy, extremely range of motions. And sometimes, I think it's easy to really hold on to certain experiences that are shared with others, right? Like you have your college buddies, your husband hit his football team that he was on from Little League or all the way or I guess Pop Warner is what it's called. Like you share experiences and that unites you.
[00:27:46] Jaycen: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:46] Desiree Daniels: But also thinking about how different experiences are also uniting because you're seeing and identifying that I understand this experience. It's different from mine. It costs you happiness, it costs you sadness, it costs you joy. And at the end of the day, getting people involved is sometimes seeing the other side, something that's different than you. A little harder than if you like shared the college dorm [laughs] or ...
[00:28:13] Jaycen: Right, right.
[00:28:14] Desiree Daniels: ... you know, a sports team, but I think it's always interesting. Like I love Anthony Bourdain.
[00:28:20] Jaycen: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:28:21] Desiree Daniels: Him sitting down with people from all different walks of life, all different countries, different position, whether it's political or in the kitchen and that's a unifying experience. Just knowing that at the end of the day, we're all human, we all eat food, we all experience loneliness, companionship, friendship and that looks different for a lot of people. So I don't know very kind of high level, but that's kind of what I think about it is getting people involved is recognizing that we're all different. We share common human sentiment, feelings, emotions.
[00:28:54] Jaycen: Breaking bread is a shared experience that I think [laughs] we all relate to.
[00:29:00] Desiree Daniels: Yeah.
[00:29:01] Jaycen: And now that you mentioned Anthony Bourdain, it's like, I want to really binge watch some of his, uh, stuff, because yeah, it seemed like the conversations that were had and the experience really like, uh, like food is such an experience. Like the preparation and all the good times leading up to it, to eating and communicating with friends and that's a great illustration as to how we can do it, "Can we find the points where we have the shared, hopefully more shared joy than the negative emotions behind them?"
[00:29:32] Desiree Daniels: Yeah, I think that there's things that unify us as humans and that sometimes it's hard to identify in every situation because people are different and, and have different and shared experiences, but remembering at the end of the day, we all eat, we all sleep.
[00:29:49] Jaycen: [laughs] I think everybody enjoys food. I haven't met one person who doesn't enjoy food yet.
[00:29:54] Desiree Daniels: [laughs].
[00:29:54] Jaycen: So you know what? I think it's like, yeah, well, going back to something you said about making simple and obtainable steps and things like that, it's like maybe in certain ways as communicators, do we overcomplicate things? Is there more shared experience that we could tap into where it isn't as messy [laughs], you know, for example, or, "Just because you have X role, this doesn't relate to you"? What are the things that relate to multiple roles, right? What are the things that relate to multiple businesses? What are the things, right, that fundamentally just make us who we are? Can we tap into more of those things in terms of communication and maybe even our strategies of trying to build more meaningful relationships and things like that?
[00:30:39] Desiree Daniels: Well, not to oversimplify my therapist because he's [inaudible 00:41:53].
[00:30:44] Jaycen: [laughs]. Can we plug, can we plug your therapist at the end of this, by the way, if anybody-
[00:30:48] Desiree Daniels: Probably we should [laughs].
[00:30:49] Jaycen: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:50] Desiree Daniels: He's awesome. I don't know.
[00:30:51] Jaycen: That's great.
[00:30:52] Desiree Daniels: You know, he has said to me, like, "Listen, Desiree, if everyone had proper communication, we wouldn't want more. We wouldn't, we wouldn't have divorce."
[00:31:01] Jaycen: Yeah, that's true.
[00:31:01] Desiree Daniels: "We wouldn't have a lot of issues." And like maybe communication is like simplifying it too much. There's so many factors that go behind the socio and economic challenges and disagreements.
[00:31:14] Jaycen: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:14] Desiree Daniels: But I do think that communication, so much of communication is listening and seeing the other side and really leaving ego and assumption off the table and saying, "When you do this, it makes me feel this way," [laughs] and listening and understanding the other person's side of their view. And I think that that applies to literally everything, how you communicate with your kids, with your parents, your coworkers, your customers and it's a two-way interaction, but you have to hold up your end of the space for the person to share their side.
[00:31:53] Jaycen: I love that. Let's end there because I think that's a great takeaway in terms of how we can become better communicators and that's really what we're all striving to do. This is about mindsets that help us to achieve things in our lives, in our businesses, in our marketing practice, whatever it is, but I think that's a great lesson for all of us is really consider the other side their perspective and become a better communicator. And that's a work in progress for all of us. So thank you so much, Desiree. It's been a great conversation.
[00:32:26] Desiree Daniels: Thank you. And I guess I'll say start small. That's the only other thing that you don't need to solve all the world's problems in, in one interaction. But if you start small, most people are willing to do small tasks before they take on a bigger one.
[00:32:40] Jaycen: That's great. Break bread [laughs].
[00:32:41] Desiree Daniels: Break bread, yeah.
[00:32:43] Jaycen: Break bread.
[00:32:44] Desiree Daniels: We're eating after this.
[00:32:46] Jaycen: Yeah, exactly, right. I know. We'd like to thank Desiree Daniels for sharing those insights with us this week. If you'd like to learn more about Desiree and the work she's doing on Google, be sure to check the links found in the show description. But we'd also like to thank Chris Do for sharing his story on Reach. If you know someone who has surprised you with an achievement, share their story with us for possible consideration on a future episode or Reach. And as always, we would greatly appreciate a review of the show on Apple Podcast. We're always interested in knowing how we can make Reach your next favorite show.