In the ever-changing landscape of B2B technology marketing the strategies employed to get traction on initiatives within an enterprise evolve with the needs of buyers. How can marketers align teams across the organization to make progress on a singular goal? Lauren Madrid from AWS shares a personal story about self-doubt, prioritization, and getting everyone on the same page.
[00:00:00] Hiromi: Lauren Madrid from AWS aligns a cross-functional team. Today on The Reach Coffee Break.
[00:00:12] Hey, Jay.
[00:00:13] Jaycen: Hey! How's it going, Hiromi?
[00:00:16] Hiromi: I hope it's good. We're trying something a little new this season with the format of the show.
[00:00:21] Jaycen: Yeah.
[00:00:22] Hiromi: If you've been listening to Reach this year, you know that we typically tell the stories of high achievers over the course of maybe four episodes, and interview marketers and entrepreneurs to comment on how the qualities of these high achievers can be applied to business. Today we're introducing The Reach Coffee Break. It's a bite sized, single episode story, and it's not about climbing mountains or becoming a rockstar.
[00:00:43] Jaycen: Yeah, I like to think about it like, now we're telling the stories of marketers, rather than high achievers. Well, that's not nice.
[00:00:51] Hiromi: [laughs]
[00:00:52] Jaycen: [laughs] But it's true! It's true. We're trying to, we're trying to pull out the stories from our core audience, and learn from their stories, and see what the mindsets are behind their achievements, what are the lessons that we can learn from them. So yeah, this should be fun.
[00:01:14] Hiromi: Yeah, I like that. When I listened to this story that we're gonna play today, it got me thinking about things in my life, personally and professionally, that I feel blocked on.
[00:01:25] Jaycen: Mm.
[00:01:25] Hiromi: Are there things in your world right now, Jay, that you feel blocked on?
[00:01:32] Jaycen: Ooh. Where's the door closed? [laughs]
[00:01:39] Hiromi: [laughs]
[00:01:39] Jaycen: Oh, s- so many areas of my life, yeah. Totally. Yeah. You know, we were talking earlier just about in our approach in terms of reaching new people, new accounts, new business. That seems like it's ever changing, ever evolving. Right? So sometimes where you just don't have the answers, or sometimes one thing's working and one thing's not working. And, then it's reverse and you're kinda puzzled. And, and I think we're just in a constant state of blockage.
[00:02:07] Hiromi: [laughs]
[00:02:09] Jaycen: You know? I, like isn't it, isn't that what it's all about, right, is like just solving-
[00:02:13] Hiromi: Yeah.
[00:02:13] Jaycen: ... The next challenge, solving the next problem, right, that's in front of us. So ...
[00:02:18] Hiromi: Yeah. I think sometimes it feels like, with house projects you feel like, "Oh, I should r- renovate the bathroom," or, "I should, you know, I should r- renovate-"
[00:02:27] Jaycen: You should renovate your bathroom.
[00:02:29] Hiromi: Right? I should renovate the bathroom.
[00:02:30] Jaycen: Me too [laughing].
[00:02:30] Hiromi: But then, I think in your head, it just seems so complicated. That, that over complication can block you from even starting the project. Sometimes you think, "Oh, I have to take this on, but I don't know if I can. I'll probably mess it up." There's those like self-doubt feelings. And then, what if I sink all of this money into this thing, or put all this effort into this thing and the historical society doesn't let me? What if the contractor won't do it? What if the building inspector doesn't pass me? What if the next buyer doesn't like what I did?
[00:03:00] So you have to make all of these assumptions and put in an enormous amount of effort into something that may or may not be worth it. And so I think that fear of putting effort into something that's not gonna have value stops you from doing anything at all, sometimes.
[00:03:17] Jaycen: That sounds like a perfect segue into-
[00:03:20] Hiromi: [laughs]
[00:03:20] Jaycen: ... Our story [laughing].
[00:03:24] Hiromi: Yeah. So, how did you meet our next guest?
[00:03:27] Jaycen: Yeah. You know, I've been trying to reach out to different marketers, ABMers, marketing leaders. And what a great find 'cause she has a ton of expertise in the marketing field, working for a variety of different tech companies. Had various roles. And I think her experience is valuable, because aligning with our team is a big challenge, especially in large companies. The larger you get and the more stakeholders that you have, I think that's just a real fundamental challenge, and her story really speaks to that. So, excited to hear it.
[00:04:01] Hiromi: Here's Lauren Madrid, who's currently Principal Campaign Manager at AWS, giving us a window into the world of B2B Tech Marketing.
[00:04:10] Lauren Madrid: Business to business technology marketing. That's companies that are trying to get other businesses to buy their products. Been in that industry for, gosh, I don't know, like 14 years now. A lot of what we do is marketing to like large buy-in groups. Like you might be marketing to an IT director, a VP of IT, a CIO, an architect. A lot of different people are involved in these decisions because they're talking about like the central IT structure of an organization. So, these are often not small opportunities that we're trying to win. We're trying to think really big and go after a lot of Fortune 500 companies in that process.
[00:04:55] So, a lot of the programs that we're putting out there, it's working with tech publications, it's working with LinkedIn, some Twitter advertising maybe, different display ads, a lot of content syndications of putting content out there on different tech focused platforms, and then getting leads back on those.
[00:05:14] And then it's a lot of working with the DemandGen teams that are gonna call out on those leads, making sure that they know what it is they should be talking to each of these groups of leads about. And often a lot of those DemandGen folks are pretty new to the work force and pretty new to a lot of things there. They might be new to sales, they might be new to tech, they might be new to all kinds of different things. So just coaching them through those conversations and how to manage all the backend systems like Salesforce and Salesforce Marketing Cloud and all the system that we use. So, it's a lot of meetings. [laughs]
[00:05:48] I think a lot of that comes with just working in tech, which also usually creates a lot of just internal churn. People coming and going very quickly, faster than any other industry I've worked in. And just coming into new situations all the time, because often when that happens, you'll meet people where they have very different backgrounds than you do or maybe they're coming into a role that's very new to them. So there's a lot of education that you have to do in a setting like that with people, because you've got four different people coming into a role in a year. There were some years where I had four different managers in the same role, or some years where we'd go through two different reorganizations. The technology moves really fast, so we as a team have to move really fast and shift very quickly. You might get a new CMO and all the sudden it's like, "Okay, well this is the new brand campaign," and now we've gotta redo everything to match the new brand campaign.
[00:06:51] I actually got really good a managing up. I had a deck that was just about myself and I would just present it to my manager [laughs] in that year where I had four different managers. This is me, this is how I work, how do you want me to handle escalations, how do you want progress reports, like et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I think a lot of it just comes from having to navigate a lot of new people all the time. Just having patience with people and assuming that everyone's just doing the best they can.
[00:07:20] A lot of folks over the years working in tech, they take like a meeting cancellation, they take that very personally or they read a lot of meaning into it. And it's, it creates I think a really negative mindset in yourself if you just assume every time a meeting moves or every time a meeting gets canceled, every time a leader doesn't tell you specifically about this one thing or doesn't highlight your project, if you take that really personally, I think you're just creating a very negative mindset within yourself.
[00:07:55] One of the things that I always try to do is assume positive intent. I assume, in a situation like that, that all those groups have a positive intent and that intent is to do their jobs really well. And it's just that those positive intents clash and that they don't know other people's intents. Know most of what people are trying to do is not make you made or send you an email that's gonna irritate you or make your life difficult. Most of the time, people are just trying to do their jobs and do the best job that they can with the marching orders that they have. So if it's rubbing you the wrong way or if it's frustrating you, it's probably not because they're trying to. [laughs]
[00:08:38] You know, if I was late to this podcast, it's not because I'm trying to make your lives difficult, it's probably because something in my life happened or I clicked the wrong link and I went to the wrong [laughs] Iris screen. That's not me trying to make your life difficult, that's just me like living my life and sort of bumbling through it, and that's how I think most people are. Everyone has a life outside of this box here on our screens, so I always just assume that if people are short or if they're grumpy or if they don't get back to me, I don't assume it's because of anything I'm doing. I assume it's just because they've got everything else going on in their lives. I believe that we all are trying to do the best jobs that we can every day. No one's job is to just make other people's jobs difficult. I like to believe there's not a company that's paying people to do that.
[00:09:33] I had a situation a couple years ago in my company that I worked at. I ran our marketing automation platform and we re-platformed. We moved from one platform to another during my time. That was a decision mostly made by finance of like a cost savings measure, because we would get certain benefits for moving to a new platform. So that was a decision that really wasn't by me but I had to uphold it. We didn't really like survey any stakeholders or anybody before we made that decision, so that was an area where it was a very like top down approach, so like this is what it is. We would just try to be really clear and outline, this is the timeline, these are all the inputs we're gonna need. This is when trainings will occur, we will move everything over, you can move it yourself or we can move it for you.
[00:10:26] We just tried to think through all the questions that our stakeholders would have, but being very firm that this is the decision that has been made. We were dealing with stakeholders globally, and there were lots of groups that were not happy with that decision, then lots of escalations that occurred. But in the end, it was just a top down decision that was made and was out of our hands. It was our jobs to really just think through all of the gotchas and the questions and the concerns that those groups would have.
[00:10:58] One of the things I did manage that was we had an agency that was helping us with that transition and towards the end of that transition, we have weekly office hours covering every region. So in the morning for myself in the US and then at night to talk to APJ in that region. We had weekly office hours that we recorded and we put on a wiki so that everyone had a chance to come ask all of their questions of our resident experts on the new platform.
[00:11:25] So, but we can't always get that consensus. As much as I, I want to and as much as I seek to make sure everyone in the room has bought into the concept, we can't always get it. I think the worst thing that can happen is that nothing happens. Like in that instance, if I didn't get everyone in the room and I had this list of asks and priorities and I just couldn't figure out what to do with it so I did nothing, that's probably the worst thing. It's usually better to do something than to do nothing.
[00:11:59] So absent of getting everyone in a room and making them prioritize, I would have just pick thing and started from there and tried to make it clear through progress updates or whatever format possible to all my stakeholders, like this is where I'm gonna and then this will come after that, and maybe these are the points in this first task where we can decide if this is working or not. If we hit this number, thumb up, everyone good. We'll keep going. If we don't, great. Kill it and let's move on. We all need to start somewhere and a lot of people need that straw man of we're gonna do this, because often I find you'll send an email out and get crickets. "What does everyone think about A, B, C." You might get zero opinions. Radio silence. And then you send an email like, "Okay, great. We're gonna go with A," and then all the sudden you get these opinions coming outta the woodwork. So, sometimes you just gotta put the straw man out there so people can start raising their hand and saying, "I don't like it. This is a terrible idea. I don't wanna do it." Great. Awesome. So B it is then. [laughs] Neat. I knew you had opinions. [laughs] I'm glad I could poke you enough to make you tell me.
[00:13:16] But often I find that people will just appreciate if you just start doing something. Sometimes people might have some opinions, but not strong opinions, or they have strong opinions about their area but not other areas. So someone coming in and saying, "Okay, I think we should do this," or coming in and saying, "We could do A or B, here are the pros and cons. Thoughts?" Like here are the two options as I see it. What are your thoughts? And people appreciate having that kind of structure, or just someone who's gonna say, "We're gonna start here. If you have other opinions, please let me know."
[00:14:05] That particular migration project is when it, I think I really understood that having that top down approach was not something that was gonna work in that culture. It was very much like a every person has a voice type of culture, and so having a very like top down approach wasn't going to work. And also just acknowledging that with where I was in my career and the role that I had, even if I wanted to make a top down approach, I was not outranking anyone else across my stakeholders, so I was not the top. We were all on the same level. So it was really like, it would be like a middle out [laughs] sort of decision if I made it, and that's often perceived even worse than a top down decision, is when someone that is not even top to you is making it.
[00:14:53] But I actually also find it really helpful sometimes to just be real with people. So in those conversations was some other reasons just flat out say, "I don't like this any better than you do." This was not, [laughs] this was not my choice, it was not your choice, I'm just naming the elephant in the room that no one wants this, but we'll all have to do it together. So, what do you need and I will get it for you. Just naming the actual emotion and that people are feeling very uncomfortable and angry about something, sometimes it just helps to name that feeling and to acknowledge that they are feeling and that sometimes you're in that same boat too. I'm not pretending that this is gonna be fun or good, and we're not pretending that it's gonna be easy, but I am saying I'm here with you in it and I'll be here til the end of it.
[00:15:51] I spent almost 10 years there and I had been in a lot of different roles. I had been in like a marketing operations technology role for quite a few years and I would move into a campaign role. And those times when I did have issues where it was unique to that campaign or that program that we'd never encountered before. One of the programs that I worked on was for a product that was really important to the organization, so there was a lot of leadership pressure and a lot of eyes on it. This was in 2020, so doing that after not having done it for I think three or four years, just a lot of internal feelings of doubt. Do I still have this? What is this job? And also just a lot of folks assumed that I knew what I was doing because I had done it before, but, you know, I had been very out of practice and kind of the function of the job had changed since the last time I had done it. So there was a lot of doubt that I had to overcome in myself.
[00:16:59] This was also probably early 2020, so just a couple months into the pandemic. I think we were all struggling with ... We had a very work from the office-centric culture, the headquarters. So I think we were all struggling with how do we have all those conversations over Slack, over Zoom, like how do we do that? I also was trying to manage through just having a lot of different stakeholders stakeholders, probably about 10 or 12 different stakeholders that I had to work with across the organization. So like the product marketer that I worked with, the DemandGen, the lead of DemandGen, different sales folks, different product folks, other marketers, like a lot of different people that I had to get together. I had only been in that role for maybe a couple months and I hadn't worked on that particular campaign for that solution I don't think ever in my career at the company.
[00:17:51] Part of it was just my own ignorance of within that product what actually matters. Who is the buyer and what do we care about? So absent of me having that background, I, I didn't know how really to prioritize all the different asks coming my way. Because often I would tell people like, "As a marketer, I can market anything. You tell me who the audience and what the product is we're trying to sell, my job is to figure out the message, and based off the audience we figure out the tactics that are gonna work. And that's it, that's marketing at a really high level. I don't care what the message is, so what do I do when I've got this group saying, "We need to go run a sales play in order to make more money," and I've got this group saying like, "No, no, no. We need to run this campaign in order to generate revenue." And I don't know which one wins in the end. I don't know which opinion is more valid.
[00:18:45] I was mostly just sort of in like analysis paralysis, in a way. I have all these different inputs and points of view and i don't know how to make them all work together. Everyone's telling me they need this program or that program this week, today, tomorrow, yesterday. You know how people are. And there's only 24 hours in a day, and this is the pandemic. Our kids are home and our dog is here and life is crazy and can't find toilet paper and yada, yada, yada. So how do I get that all done? It was an exercise in like prioritization of how do I prioritize all these different asks and how do I figure out which asks I need to care about. We all need to agree on what the priority of all these things are, and like what [inaudible 00:19:33] to do this week and next week and next week.
[00:19:36] But a lot of the way I got through that was just, one, reminding myself that I've done this before. I just need to pull it back out of myself and trust my instincts there, because I'd done it for years and I have those instincts. I just have to flex them a bit. And two, remembering that this is marketing. This isn't rocket science. The programs I was putting together, these are digital campaigns basically, to put out into market and working with sellers, working with DemandGen team, working with product marketers. I can't figure out what to do, then what would somebody else do if they were in my shoes? I could just go ask somebody what they would do, because I'm not the first person that's ever encountered this issue, so surely somebody knows. And then the third thing was realizing that we've never done this before, then whatever idea I come up with is probably gonna be the best idea just because no one else has any ideas, so why don't we just do that and see what happens?
[00:20:36] When I think about prioritization just in my work life, a lot of that has to do with what's most important that I need to accomplish today? And really sometimes I tend to get into the mindset of, well I promised this person that I was gonna do it this week so I need to prioritize that, when really I had to take a step back and think about is that the most important thing I should be doing this week, not just is it something I promised someone? 'Cause I can always go back and let them know. So really like holding the people out of it and really thinking about what's the important task that I have and the project itself and focusing on that.
[00:21:15] I think there's also merit to just having the idea of a cross functional team. We're all one team and it's not any one of us winning or losing. We all have to win together because we're all trying to accomplish the same thing, we just disagree on how to get there. So, let's figure it out. I like having a team of people where we're all gonna move in the same direction, so to me it was helpful for us to feel like a team, like we were all agreed on what we were gonna go do. I didn't feel like it was my job to decide necessarily what one thing was more important than another thing across this vast group of stakeholders. And also realizing that I'm not in this alone, I have 15 other people here. I don't need to do all of this myself. Other people can help with some of these tasks and help get these things done too.
[00:22:08] I thought it was important that we all decide together what's most important to do, and then figure out how we all accomplish that together. So part of how I did that was just seeking out the people that do know and then making them figure it out together. Really just acknowledging that I'm not the smartest person in the room, so who are those smart people that I can get in the room to help figure this out? I think the older I get, the further along I get in my career, it's not about being the smartest person in the room, but making sure I have all the people that are smartest in that area and getting them in that room. So I had to just manage through a lot of those feelings and really trust my gut. And it sounds silly when I say it, but the way I sought to navigate that was just to have a weekly meeting about marketing for this product, with me in the room moderating that discussion week over week, to basically put marketing as the leader of this effort instead of all of us talking to each other. Like let's talk as a group and be on the same page, and everyone just rallied around that. If two groups disagree on what the message should be, then you need to work that out [laughs] because I can't do my job until you do that.
[00:23:27] It seems so simple when you say it, but those things are often sometimes the hardest to accomplish. I have group A telling me X and I have group B telling me Y. So in that situation, I don't assume that group A has already talked to group B and they just don't agree on the best thing to do, I assume that they haven't actually talked to each other. So part of my job is just to check that box and make sure that we all get in a room and talk about it. At least that way everyone feels heard and everyone is hearing each other's opinions. It's like, well can those groups just work it out amongst themselves and then let me know what the decision is? And the answer is they can.
[00:24:09] I remember I'd been doing it for maybe three or four months, so I had to talk to my manager about like how is this going? He was like, "Yeah, you're doing a great job." And I was like, "I am?" I'm very surprised. I don't feel like I'm doing [laughs] a great job and I feel like every day I'm just struggling to, to get out from under this mound of like meetings and emails and such. And he seemed really surprised that I had been struggling, like he didn't see that in me at all in our interactions or the work that I'd been doing. So that was really gratifying to hear that despite all of the internal struggle, it really was an iceberg where he could see just the top of it, but all the struggle was just way down below. So [laughs] the way I tried to navigate like having too many stakeholders with conflicting opinions is just, like I said earlier, get everyone in a room and make them talk to each other and network it out.
[00:25:09] It turned out really well. I think we surpassed our bookings goal for the campaign that year, and it was great. It was really successful I think from an internal cross functional point an I think all my stakeholders liked it and relied on the meeting. We tried to adopt that sort of cross functional model of marketing leading all the different stakeholders in the room. We tried to adopt that across the other campaigns as well, just to create some cohesion and create some structure around the chaos that was 2020, professionally and personally for all of us.
[00:25:47] We had an internal marketing award you can nominate your peers for, and one of my peers nominated me. She actually wrote an acrostic poem using my name [inaudible 00:25:58]. And one of it was like, "Have you ever seen Lauren run a meeting? It's amazing." Yes, it is amazing. I get everyone in there, all the people I need, I run that agenda. We get it done. [laughs] So those are a lot of the things that I learned in that particular role. How to get everyone on board and often one of the ways I'm able to do that in my new role is like, well let's just make everyone talk together, because I don't know why we are in the middle and just passing the messages back and forth across our stakeholders when we could just make them talk to each other.
[00:26:35] I started about three months ago at AWS and all those are skills ... Like in my role, I'm a senior level individual contributor role that sits across all of the global campaigns teams that I support across my organization. So there's about 100 other folks across these teams that I'm dotted line helping with in all different capacities. So having that experience of just having to work across a lot of stakeholders, having to juggle a lot of priorities, a lot of asks, having all the experience is hugely beneficial in my role today, and a lot of it is how I got this role today.
[00:27:19] So a lot of the advice that I try to tell myself is the advice that I have given to people that I've managed or teammates over the years, which is you know what you're doing, most likely. That's why you're in this role. You didn't get hired because you were brand new to marketing or any of this. You got hired because you have done this before. Just to calm down and just think about it for a second and stop panicking, and you'll probably figure out something to do. And then the second piece is something that I've already said, which is just start somewhere. It's better to just start something, and even just start small if you can. It doesn't have to be a complete 90 degree turn to the left of what you're doing now.
[00:27:58] The other thing that I try to remember and that I told so many people in my career, is that six months from now, this day that you're having, this terrible day or this meeting where you get called out and you're like this is the end of my career, I don't know how I'm gonna recover from this, you're not gonna remember this. You might sort of remember this meeting, but you're not gonna remember that it was Tuesday or anything else that was happening. Like you're not gonna remember any of this at all. So stop dwelling on it now. Let it go now, because it doesn't matter. You might not even remember this next week because something else will happen. Life will happen or an even worse meeting will happen. You never know. Like most of these terrible things that have happened in our careers, they didn't end your career. Nothing really happened [laughs] at the end of the day, because we all have those moments, and they always feel huge to ourselves, but I don't think most people are thinking about other people as much as we think they are. They might not even have noticed. I try to think of like future Lauren. She's not gonna remember this at all, so present Lauren should just let it go. [laughs]
[00:29:05] Hiromi: Did this story resonate with you at all, Jay? Have you ever been in the position that she describes there?
[00:29:11] Jaycen: Yeah. Totally. How do you get everybody aligned around a singular vision, a singular mission, a singular objective-
[00:29:19] Hiromi: Yeah.
[00:29:19] Jaycen: ... When there's differing views, right?
[00:29:21] Hiromi: Right.
[00:29:21] Jaycen: And the idea of putting out options for people-
[00:29:24] Hiromi: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:25] Jaycen: ... And seeing what feedback you get isn't necessarily the best strategy. Like I think putting something forward and then embracing whatever the criticism is is going to help you get aligned around what everybody wants.
[00:29:37] Hiromi: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
[00:29:37] Jaycen: Or at least gets a starting place, you know.
[00:29:39] Hiromi: That is what I really appreciated about what she said too, because I think there's nothing more irritating than people trying to produce value through criticism, but no one being willing to take that constructive role.
[00:29:55] Jaycen: Yep.
[00:29:56] Hiromi: It, it's like I, I, I want my voice heard through tearing down the progress [laughs] that's being made. That mindset can be very frustrating, but that's just the reality of it. So to find someone like a Lauren, who is going to take that initiative, put things forward that people can tear down, but, you know, at least there's progress being made. That's a diamond in the rough right there.
[00:30:18] Jaycen: Yeah. Totally. Totally.
[00:30:20] Hiromi: Yeah. Give people the opportunity to have a voice, to honor their voice, but also help them to visualize a potential outcome.
[00:30:28] Jaycen: Yeah, I agree. Having the courage to do it, but also there's a real humility I think too about her in terms of not to take criticism personally too.
[00:30:37] Hiromi: Right.
[00:30:38] Jaycen: Right, like and I'm sure there's times, as she relates, that that has become personal, but she's learned to not view it so dramatically or seriously, right. To get beyond it, to think about her future state-
[00:30:51] Hiromi: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:52] Jaycen: ... And looking at these as like minor setbacks or critiques. We could all learn from that.
[00:30:57] Hiromi: Yeah. You have to have a certain amount of humility to be willing to throw away work, to put effort into something that you know-
[00:31:03] Jaycen: Yep.
[00:31:04] Hiromi: ... May get thrown away. But that's the only we make progress.
[00:31:07] Jaycen: Yep.
[00:31:07] Hiromi: So having people that have that humility to put effort into something, knowing it's just gonna get thrown away is invaluable. [laughs]
[00:31:15] Jaycen: Yeah, so throw all your work away. Let's throw this pod away, you know.
[00:31:19] Hiromi: [laughs]
[00:31:19] Jaycen: This episode is just goners, let's just throw it in the trash.
[00:31:21] Hiromi: That is how humble we are. [laughs]
[00:31:23] Jaycen: [laughs] That's ... You know how humble we are? We're gonna throw this thing in the trash. [laughs] You are not gonna hear it. Sorry.
[00:31:31] Hiromi: [laughs] So, who is our next guest?
[00:31:35] Jaycen: Our next guest is a globally recognized keynote speaker, he's an educator, he's a business consultant, he's an author, he has a blog that's hailed as one of the top blogs in the world on marketing, he has global sales, PR marketing experience, 30 years experience in the marketing profession. And so we're interested in talking and seeing how we can rise above the noise together.
[00:31:58] Hiromi: Sounds worth a subscribe to me. [laughs]
[00:32:01] Jaycen: Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:02] Hiromi: Right.
[00:32:03] Jaycen: [inaudible 00:32:03].